How Sabrina Carpenter Became A Pop Queen: Tracing Her Journey To 'Short N' Sweet' | GRAMMY.com (2024)

Sabrina Carpenter is the first to admit that it's taken her a bit of time to find her way to the top of the music industry. She even likens herself to the tortoise in the fable "The Tortoise and the Hare" — even if she didn't want to believe the metaphor growing up.

"Something that my mom always said to me as a little girl that really annoyed me was that I am the tortoise… throughout my life, [I was] being told, 'Sabrina, you're the tortoise, just chill,'" Carpenter recalled while accepting the Variety Hitmakers Rising Artist Award in December 2023. "In moments of frustration and confusion it can feel like a letdown, but it turns out it's actually a very good thing."

It's been a very good thing for Carpenter, indeed. A decade since the release of her debut single, the singer/songwriter isn't just breaking through — she's one of pop's new reigning queens. Over the last year, Carpenter has nabbed her first No. 1 song on the Billboard Hot 100, made a stellar debut at Coachella, and performed on "Saturday Night Live," all the while racking up billions of streams on her music new and old. It's all built excitement for one of the most anticipated pop albums of the summer: Short n' Sweet.

As Carpenter unveils her new album, take a deep dive into her decade-long journey to pop stardom.

Getting Started: Disney Breakthrough

Growing up, Carpenter filled the sounds of her family home in Pennsylvania with covers of songs like Adele's "Set Fire To The Rain" and "Picture to Burn" by future Eras Tour companion Taylor Swift (more on that later). After submitting videos for a singing contest spearheaded by Miley Cyrus, Carpenter would get her first taste of success. Placing third, she caught the eye of Hollywood Records, who signed her following the competition.

Simultaneously, Carpenter also began pursuing acting, landing guest spots on series like "Law & Order: Special Victims Unit" in 2011 and joining "The Goodwin Games" in 2012. In 2014, she landed a lead role in the Disney Channel series "Girl Meets World," a spin-off of the beloved '90s series "Boy Meets World," which served as a breakthrough moment for the burgeoning star — and a catalyst for her music career.

Just before the show debuted, Carpenter released her debut single, "Can't Blame A Girl for Trying," the title track to her debut EP that arrived a month later. While the four-track EP was the typical output of a teenage Disney star — bubblegum pop sounds with digestible, family-friendly lyricism — it showed off her youthful timbre and offered themes that would become prevalent later in Carpenter's songwriting: love, heartache, and navigating life.

A year later, she released her debut album, Eyes Wide Open. A mix of pop with folk and country influences — a soundscape that remains on Short n' Sweet — Carpenter's debut showed maturity and growth following Can't Blame A Girl For Trying; songs like "Eyes Wide Open" and "We'll Be the Stars" showed a more introspective side, reflecting on the pressures of being in the spotlight and the journey of finding her identity. Eyes Wide Open also hinted that Carpenter was beginning to hone her songwriting skills, penning four of the 12 tracks.

It would be on her 2016 sophom*ore album, EVOLution, where Carpenter would find confidence as a songwriter, co-writing all but one song on the 10-track project. In turn, the lyrics reflected her growing sense of self and a new perspective on past themes, like embracing non-romantic forms of love in "All We Have is Love," being there for a struggling friend in "Shadows," and learning to assert boundaries in "Space."

EVOLution transitioned Carpenter out of the teen pop aesthetic into a more sophisticated sound, experimenting with dance-pop and techno sonics. Genre versatility would become a throughline of sorts for Carpenter, and EVOLution foreshadowed the multifaceted musicality that was to come.

Shedding Disney: From Child Actor To Pop Star

After "Girl Meets World" came to an end at the beginning of 2017, Carpenter was ready for reinvention. Much like Britney Spears' Britney and Cyrus' Can't Be Tamed before her, as Carpenter grew into an adult, she felt like she needed to shed the Disney-fied image that has become a rite of passage for teen stars. Thus began the Singular era.

Released in 2018 and 2019, respectively, Singular: Act I and Singular: Act II featured songs that were more risqué and mature in nature. A far cry from her tamer work of the past, the R&B track "Hold Tight" is equal parts sultry and evocative with Carpenter singing, "Wanna keep you in, wanna keep you in right/ Wanna feel your skin, wanna feel it on mine."

As she noted in an interview with Billboard, Singular: Act I was a natural progression for a girl now in her late teens — even if it was against the squeaky-clean image of her beginnings.

"I was known as a fictional character on television with lines that were written for her with an attitude that was portrayed in a way by other people. So for a lot of people, their first impression of me was as a 13-year-old girl [singing] the kinds of songs that she should be singing," she said. "Then, flash forward to 19, and people are asking why I am not singing about the same things that I did when I was 13, as if that's normal."

One of the more notable Singular tracks is from Act I, "Sue Me." Sneakily disguised as a story about a romantic relationship, the song is Carpenter's response to being sued by her ex music managers: "That's my shape, I made the shadow/ That's my name, don't wear it out though/ Feelin' myself can't be illegal." Its tongue-in-cheek and snarky nature would inevitably embolden Carpenter to continue writing more confessional songs with attitude, whether she's responding to media scrutiny in "because i liked a boy" from 2022's emails i can't send, or warning a suitor to be careful in Short n' Sweet's "Please, Please, Please."

Singular: Act I and Act II further helped demonstrate different facets of Carpenter's musicality, with the former leaning into pop tendencies and the latter embracing an R&B flair. And as her final albums with Hollywood Records, she used Singular: Act I and Act II to indicate that she wasn't going to let any sort of previous perceptions hold her back. Their coming-of-age themes showcased Carpenter as an artist coming into her own — regardless of whether listeners wanted to keep her in the Disney box or not.

Reintroducing Herself: Artistic Authenticity & The "Nonsense" Effect

While the world was going through a period of change amid the COVID-19 pandemic, so was Carpenter. She signed with Universal Music Group's Island Records in 2021, and soon she would be able to fully introduce the world to who Sabrina Carpenter is as an artist.

As she noted herself to Variety earlier this year, her 2022 LP, emails i can't send, "marked the beginning of a really freeing and artistic time for me." Once again, she co-wrote every song on the album; this time, though, she only had one co-writer for each track, and even wrote two songs solo ("emails i can't send" and "how many things") — proving that she was more assured as a songwriter than ever.

As a result, Carpenter's knack for confessional songwriting is on full display. emails i can't send represents a reflective time capsule of sorts; one that brings the curiosity of her earlier work with the perspective and wisdom of a young adult. Her growing fame meant there was more attention on her personal life, and emails i can't send allowed her to reclaim her narrative and express her side of the story.

Carpenter's candidness struck a chord with listeners, and upon the release of emails i can't send in July 2022, it was clear Carpenter was on a new trajectory. The album debuted at No. 23 on the Billboard 200, which marked her highest entry on the chart to date (as of press time); the 2022 stretch of her Emails I Can't Send Tour sold out in less than a day. And once "Nonsense" was released as a single that November, her place as a rapidly rising star was solidified.

"Nonsense" was initially written as a means to an end after Carpenter was writing a sad song and had writer's block. Now, the track is the epitome of Carpenter's lyricism, weaving together her wit and humor with an infectious hook. First gaining traction on TikTok because of its catchiness, it's become a beloved part of Carpenter's canon thanks to her inventive and bespoke outros during her live shows. It's since become a tradition for fans to check to see what outro she created for each performance, adding to the fan fervor.

Carpenter further satiated fans' taste for her cheeky lyricism in March 2023, when she released emails i can't send fwd:, the deluxe version of her album, which featured a new track called "Feather." She took the playful, flirting energy of "Nonsense" and infused "Feather" with buoyant, airy production that mimics the feeling of self-liberation after moving on from a relationship. Earning Carpenter her first pop radio No. 1, "Feather" proved that the singer's audacious style was taking hold — and it set the stage for an even bigger 2024.

Becoming A Superstar: Eras Tour, "Espresso" & Beyond

After her own extensive — and very sold out — tour in support of Emails I Can't Send, Carpenter's rising star status was further confirmed by pop's current queen, Taylor Swift. The singer earned a coveted opening slot on Swift's monumental Eras Tour in Mexico, South America, Australia, and Asia.

Just after her last Eras Tour show in March 2024, Carpenter hinted that her own new era was beginning. "I'm starting to feel like I've outgrown the songs I'm singing," she admitted to Cosmopolitan, "which is always an exciting feeling because I think that means the next chapter is right around the corner."

That chapter began with "Espresso," which dropped a day before her debut Coachella performance. Doubling down on the playful, self-assured vibe of "Nonsense," the song immediately hinted that big things were coming for Carpenter, debuting at No. 7 on the Billboard Hot 100, where it peaked at No. 3.

Upon announcing her sixth album, Short n' Sweet, Carpenter released "Please Please Please." Combining her now-signature playful, carefree lyricism with an airy, disco-tinged sound, "Please Please Please" didn't just present Carpenter as a confident superstar — it became her first Hot 100-topping smash.

Carpenter has referred to Short n' Sweet as the "hot older sister" of emails i can't send. "It's my second 'big girl' album; it's a companion but it's not the same," she explained to Variety, to whom she also admitted she feels a "sense of separation" from her work prior to emails. "When it comes to having full creative control and being a full-fledged adult, I would consider this a sophom*ore album."

It's apt, then, that her Short n' Sweet collaborators — including songwriters Julia Michaels, Amy Allen and Steph Jones — are largely the same as the team from emails i can't send. "I've really honed in on the people that I love making music with," she told Rolling Stone in June.

Even more telling of the direction she's heading is her work with one of pop's hottest producers — and Swift's right-hand man — Jack Antonoff, for the first time. At a GRAMMY Museum event with Antonoff himself, Carpenter debuted the country-infused "Slim Pickins," presenting yet another pop style from Short n' Sweet. And as "Slim Pickins," "Espresso" and "Please Please Please" indicate, Carpenter's knack for infectious and edgy lyrics isn't just the throughline across Short n' Sweet — it's become the epitome of both her artistry and her stardom.

Just like her metaphorical friend the tortoise, Carpenter's long but steady journey has clearly paid off. As she's figured out who she is on her own terms, she's manifested the bonafide superstardom she's always imagined.

"I never had the plan B, and it wasn't even a thought in my mind that it wouldn't work out," she told Rolling Stone. "I just always knew it was about not if it would happen but when it would happen."

For Carpenter, every chapter of her artistry has built on the last; she's refused to rest on her laurels and continuously pursued new directions. She's creating work that wholeheartedly reflects her, and growing a loyal fan base because of it. Her next album might be named Short n' Sweet, but her time as a pop superstar will be anything but.

When Jimmy Buffett passed away on Sept. 1, 2023 at age 76, the decorated singer/songwriter, performer, author and entrepreneur left behind a legacy that unified a swath of musical genres and people.

The man behind "Margaritaville" — the song and later the brand — and so many other tunes that bridged folk sensibilities with country and rock touches, sometimes called "Gulf & Western," was much more than the beach-obsessed character he played in song. Although he had plenty of industry successes, notching 13 Billboard Hot 100 hits, a pair of GRAMMY Award nominations, while selling more than 20 million albums, his fans loved him for how he made them feel.

In song, he was a true storyteller that was clever, funny and introspective; in performances, he was the quintessential Parrothead to the core. As the ringleader of the party, he was generous enough to share the spotlight with members of his Coral Reefer Band as well as the fans who dressed up, tailgated outside the venues and spread their joy to others.

Both sides of Buffett were crucial building blocks in the business empire he built around his persona as the laid-back, casually philosophical beach bum. The Margaritaville restaurant and resort chains, his Landshark Lager beer and many other ventures made him a billionaire, while his storytelling prowess made him one of few authors to top both fiction and nonfiction bestsellers' lists. While his legacy may be both musical and merchandisable, the endearing qualities of the Parrothead personality he created is the real reward for his fans.

Below, remember Buffett's illustrious career through 15 classic songs — just a glimpse of his genius that made it okay for country singers to loosen up, for rockers to pick up an acoustic guitar, and for the Parrotheads to while away their days in the sun.

"Why Don't We Get Drunk," 'A White Sports Coat and a Pink Crustacean' (1973)

While Buffett's first two albums showed glimpses of the celebrated artist he would become, his songwriting largely hewed close to the earnest observations typical of early-seventies folkies. By his third album, though, he had grown into his winking style of satire and breezy, Nashville-meets-Key West flair.

This cut from A White Sports Coat and a Pink Crustacean combined both, and created the template for hundreds of bleary-eyed sing-alongs to follow. "The Great Filling Station Hold-Up" may have been the proper album single, but "Why Don't We Get Drunk," its controversial B-side, became the bigger tune — and the one featured on his seven-times Platinum compilation, Songs You Know By Heart.

"Come Monday," 'Living & Dying in ¾ Time' (1974)

As Buffett pulled away from his folk sensibilities, Nashville-style balladry became a big part of his sound. "Come Monday" brings orchestral strings into the mix to help express the yearnings he felt while stuck in "a brown L.A. haze," pining for his love back home. The song resonated with new fans, becoming his first Top 40 single, as it peaked at No. 30 on the Billboard Hot 100.

"A Pirate Looks at Forty," 'A1A' (1974)

It probably wasn't a stretch for Buffett to sing so convincingly from the perspective of a seafaring, modern-day pirate. He considered his own later entrepreneurial forays an adventure on the high seas of life. But back in '74, he was so inspired by the real-life stories of a Key West smuggler and rapscallion he befriended that he wrote "A Pirate Looks at Forty" from his perspective.

A key cut on his second long-player of '74, A1A, "Pirate" is empathetic to the dashed dreams and yearnings of a man looking back at his wins and losses. And despite the eventual billionaire fortunes of Buffett himself, his narrator determines the balance is a draw.

"Margaritaville," 'Changes in Latitude, Changes in Attitude' (1977)

Buffett's next album, Changes in Latitude, Changes in Attitude, launched his music career into the stratosphere — and its success had a lot to do with "Margaritaville," a Top 10 hit and the basis of the global brand he later built.

Essentially, "Margaritaville" established the beach-boho lifestyle as an aspiration for millions. Against a backdrop of tropical instruments like steel drum and marimba, Buffett sang of the quiet pleasures of an unhurried life, unconcerned with the tides and buoyed by his favorite blender drink. In 2016, the tune was voted into the GRAMMY Hall of Fame, while the Library of Congress added it to the National Recording Registry in April 2023.

"Son Of A Son Of A Sailor," 'Son Of A Son Of A Sailor' (1978)

Whether Buffett's soft and breezy music can be considered "yacht rock" is a subject of debate, but he certainly rocked a yacht or two in his day — and he dressed the part for the cover of his album Son Of A Son Of A Sailor. The title track is a definitive take on his love of the wandering life, untethered from the anchors many cling to and always in search of the next port of call. A master of ballads whimsical and wistful, Buffett manages to be both at once here.

"Cheeseburger in Paradise," 'Son Of A Son Of A Sailor' (1978)

Before it was a menu item at his Margaritaville-branded restaurants and resorts, "Cheeseburger in Paradise" was a mirage Buffett dreamed about while marooned at sea. As the story goes, a misadventure in the Caribbean left Buffett with only meager rations to survive. And when he finally struck a landing on dry ground, his first meal inspired one of his most enduring songs: an easy-rockin' Top 40 hit about cheeseburgers that somehow isn't a novelty cut — a hat trick only Buffett could pull off.

"Fins," 'Volcano' (1979)

As the lead tune from his 11th album, Volcano, "Fins" entered the pantheon of Buffett concert staples immediately and helped inspire plenty of Parrothead ephemera, as well as the title of the 1990 live album Feeding Frenzy and his Landshark Lager brand. But none of that would be important if not for Buffett's song about a hapless woman who travels to the beach to relax, but instead is encircled by "sharks that can swim on the land." With "fins" to the left and right of her, she's "the only bait in town."

"Boat Drinks," 'Volcano' (1979)

Buffett had a knack for coining phrases — and "Boat Drinks" certainly qualifies among the best. What makes a boat ride better? Boat drinks, of course.

An album cut from Volcano (also featured as a B-side to the single "Survive"), Buffett ironically wrote the song while on a winter sojourn in Boston, exiled from his native habitat and wishing the city's fresh blanket of snow were the sugar-white sands of Florida. Musically, the tune is a quintessential cut from his whirlwind late-seventies period, when Caribbean themes and sonic textures became his calling card.

"It's My Job," 'Coconut Telegraph' (1981)

Long before Mac McAnally joined Buffett as a sideman in the Coral Reefer Band, Buffett sent the young artist a note praising his songwriting. Then, for his 1981 album, Coconut Telegraph, Buffett boosted his new friend's fortunes by recording "It's My Job," a tune McAnally wrote about taking pride in your work — however menial or miserable it may be — while working on a hot Mississippi highway in the summertime. The tune reached No. 57 on the Billboard Hot 100, marking Buffett's last appearance on the chart until 2003 (more on that later).

"One Particular Harbor," 'One Particular Harbor' (1983)

The 1980s were the beginning of Buffett's transition from chart champion to blockbuster concert draw. But he still had plenty of gas in the songwriting tank, as songs like "One Particular Harbor" proved.

Inspired by his travels in Polynesia, Buffett sings in Tahitian about the "abundance of the sea" after leaving behind the mainland. While the song was a minor hit on Adult Contemporary radio, it became a fan favorite and a mainstay of live shows from the era.

"Jamaica Mistaica," 'Banana Wind' (1996)

Like on "Cheeseburger in Paradise," Buffett's penchant for seeing the humor in the unfortunate dustups of his real life shines on the Banana Wind cut "Jamaica Mistaica." In this case, Jamaican police opened fire on his plane, believing he was a smuggler or criminal straight out of his own song "A Pirate Looks at Forty." Set to a reggae beat, though, Buffett lets listeners in on the joke — an endearing quality that earned him the love not only of Parrotheads, but also an official apology from the Jamaican government.

"It's Five O'Clock Somewhere," Alan Jackson's 'Greatest Hits Volume II' (2003)

By the dawn of the new century, Buffett's beach-bum aesthetic had conquered Nashville, the town he left in the early '70s to find his identity as an artist in Key West. And "It's Five O'Clock Somewhere," recorded with country star Alan Jackson and featured on his Greatest Hits Volume II, was exactly the new Buffett-style anthem Music City needed.

It was also what Buffett's 21st century career needed: "It's Five O'Clock Somewhere" earned the veteran singer his first No. 1 on Billboard's Hot Country Songs chart as well as his first GRAMMY nomination (in the Best Country Collaboration With Vocals Category) and his first Country Music Association Award (for Vocal Event of the Year). Later, the song notched the No. 3 song of the decade on Billboard's Hot Country Songs chart, proving Buffett's staying power amid shifting musical trends.

"Bama Breeze," 'Take the Weather With You' (2006)

After Hurricane Katrina made matchsticks of Buffett's home territory in 2005 — the beachfront bars of Mississippi, Alabama and Florida where he cut his teeth — he responded with the album Take the Weather With You and its leadoff track, "Bama Breeze." The country-rock tune extols the virtues of the so-called "Redneck Riviera" and coming of age as the sun came up outside the dive bars of the Gulf Coast, many of which were now ruined. The song also nods to the fans who have stuck by him since the beginning: "At the Bama Breeze, you're one of our own down there/ You'll never drink alone down there/ Good god, I feel at home down there."

"Knee Deep," 'You Get What You Give' (Zac Brown Band, 2010)

"Bubbles Up," 'Equal Strain On All Parts' (2023)

Although the public wasn't aware at the time, Buffett was dealing with the effects of Merkel cell carcinoma — the disease that claimed his life — throughout his final years of touring and recording music. Released two months after he passed, Equal Strain On All Parts, his 32nd and final album, arrived like a comforting voice from beyond to Parrotheads and casual fans alike.

On "Bubbles Up," Buffett was in a particularly reflective mood, facing his own mortality in his most measured, reassuring manner. The title phrase came from his survival training — if he were to find himself submerged in water, either from a boat or plane wreck, his trainers advised him to follow the bubbles up to the surface. "They will always point you toward home," he sings, "no matter how deep or how far you roam."

For a songwriter and performer who spent his life showing the world how to relax, enjoy life and see the humor in life's challenges, the reassuring sentiment — to quote the title of his 2004 album — underscores that a License to Chill has no expiration date.

In a time where pop balances between intimate vulnerability and brazen confidence, queer pop stars like Chappell Roan, Billie Eilish, Reneé Rapp, FLETCHER, and girl in red are spearheading a movement of their own: the lesbian pop renaissance.

The unofficially coined cultural craze has seen a number of queer women sing openly and explicitly about their same-sex relationships. And they're not holding back: "She was a Playboy, Brigitte Bardot/ She showed me things I didn't know," swoons Roan in "Red Wine Supernova," while Eilish gushes "she dances on my tongue" in "Lunch," and FLETCHER confesses in "girls, girls, girls" that she "kissed a girl and…really, really liked it."

This era of openly sapphic joy follows a history of hardships, with decades of queer artists defying prejudice and hom*ophobia to sing openly about their desires and emotions. It's not been an easy journey — and struggles are still painfully evident. When grilled about her sexuality last year, Eilish declared on Instagram, "I like boys and girls leave me alone about it"; it echoed Dusty Springfield's 1970s interview when she revealed, "I'm perfectly capable of being swayed by a girl as by a boy... and I don't see why I shouldn't."

Some have defined sapphic pop as a subgenre of indie or bedroom pop, and others have celebrated the more anthemic, upbeat "sapphic bops." But in reality, no one style of music encapsulates lesbian/sapphic songs; these artists are united by loving and desiring other women — some openly, while others were restrained due to societal pressures.

The current wave of unapologetic queer stars marks a pivotal moment in music history, where sapphic pop is no longer cornered in lesbian circles and gay clubs, but dominating mainstream airwaves, and influencing global pop trends while being rightfully celebrated by the masses. So as the current queer female stars continue to thrive, it's important to pay homage to all of the artists that paved the way.

Read on for a history of defiantly queer women and nonbinary people in music — a celebration of who they are, how they have loved and their remarkable musical imprint.

1950s: A Ranchera Folk Queer Pioneer

Costa Rican artist Chavela Vargas began singing in Mexican cantinas as a teenager in the 1950s, becoming a key figure of Mexico City's bohemian artistic boom. With slick, short hair and a powerful presence, Vargas sang regional Mexican music with hoarse fragility in her songs, including "Las simples cosas" and the haunting "La Llorona" (which means "The Weeping Woman"); her sobbing voice echoing the song's grieving protagonist.

With love songs addressed to women and an androgynous sense of style, Vargas never hid her sexuality, but first openly spoke about her lesbianism when she was 81. Before her death in 2012 at the age of 93, she lived a fascinating and exuberant life, was a friend and lover of Frida Kahlo and is rumored to have had flings with the likes of Ava Gardner. With her heart-wrenching vocal command, she is considered one of the most important artists in Latin American folk, and remains a towering figure in Latin American queer history.

1960s: A Fearless Pop Star

Decades before female musicians began openly embracing their sexuality, Dusty Springfield cooly shrugged at rumors about her own — her aforementioned 1970 "coming out" interview solidifies her status as one of the first openly queer female pop stars.

Rising to fame in the 1960s with her blonde beehive and dark eye makeup, Springfield frequented London gay clubs at the height of the Swinging Sixties (which, ironically, didn’t have anything to do with queerness). With hits including "You Don't Have To Say You Love Me" and "Son of a Preacher Man," her powerful voice channeled emotion with unnerving vulnerability. Though her music was never quite as frank as she was in the public eye, a few of Springfield's later releases touched on queer themes (1979's "Closet Man" and her 1989 collab with Pet Shop Boys, "In Private").

1970s: Feminist Folk & Funk

The second-wave feminist movement in the U.S. pushed gender issues to the core of the country's socio-politico agenda, including fights for abortion rights (Roe v. Wade in 1973) and the ferocious push to pass the Equal Rights Amendment. Women artists were showing they were more than pop glam, picking up guitars and refusing to dress up for the cameras, favoring casual attire; sapphic pop was entering an era of authenticity and emotional honesty. Along the way, a group of feminist lesbians set up Olivia Records.

In 1975, Olivia's co-founder Cris Williamson released her politically charged folk album, The Changer and The Changed, one of the highest-selling independent records of the time; two years later, Linda Tillery's funk-soul track "Womanly Way" explored the sensual side of sapphic love: "I think I'd like to get to know you in a special kind of womanly way" she croons. Pioneering trans sound engineer Sandy Stone was an integral part of the Olivia team until she was forced to leave after receiving harrowing threats from separatist groups, sadly marking the steady decline of the groundbreaking label.

In the UK, Joan Armatradingattracted buzz after performing gigs around her native Birmingham, earning fans for her slick guitar, melodic piano and powerful vocals. Though her lyrics were gender-neutral, Armatrading's music was largely embraced by the lesbian community — including the 1978 song "Taking My Baby Up Town," which celebrates queer love despite the prejudice and hom*ophobia of the time ("You kissed me/ And then all the people started to stare/ We started a commotion/ Someone making comments, morals/ The state of affairs and I said, "What we got is the best"). In 2008, she performed on Cyndi Lauper's True Colors Tour, which raised funds for LGBTQIA+ charities; she has spoken openly about her sexuality in the past decade, and has been in a civil partnership with Maggie Butler since 2011.

1980s: Love, Lust & Rock and Roll

The '80s brought a spirit of punk into the mainstream, and queer circles were attracted to the music's rebellion and rage. British-Canadian singer Carole Pope was part of the rock band Rough Trade, characteristically clad in leather and singing raunchy songs dedicated to the joys of BDSM and girl-on-girl eroticism. Rough Trade's lustful 1980 song "High School Confidential" shocked listeners at the time: "It makes me cream my jeans when she comes my way," swoons Pope. In 1981, she had a brief (but intense) relationship with Dusty Springfield.

A new folk movement was quietly brewing in the hushed tones and poignant strums of Tracy Chapman. Though she has never spoken publicly about her sexuality, her GRAMMY-winning hit "Fast Car" has been embraced as a lesbian anthem for its ideals of escapism and unhinged freedom. (Chapman's sexuality was later confirmed by her former lover, author Alice Walker, who spoke about their mid-90s relationship in 2006, though there's no disclosed relation to "Fast Car.")

Folk-rock duo Indigo Girls, who are both openly lesbian, formed in 1985 and immediately cultivated a cult queer following that led to a major label deal in 1988. Their 1989 self-titled album — which spawned the celebrated queer anthem "Closer to Fine" — went double platinum in the U.S. and won a GRAMMY for Best Contemporary Folk Recording in 1990. Just this year, the duo released a documentary, It's Only Life After All, which charts their journey, revealing the hom*ophobic snubs they've stoically endured throughout their career.

Meanwhile, South AfricanBrenda Fassie began making music with her band the Big Dudes in the early 1980s, combining pop with hip-hop and kwaito. While Fassie did not explicitly sing about being queer, she often referred to herself as a lesbian and never hid her relationships with women. A staunch anti-apartheid campaigner, Fassie made pop with powerful social commentary; she was even hailed as the "Madonna of the Townships" for her brazen lyrics. Thought to be Africa's first openly queer pop star, Fassie remains a beacon of acceptance and tolerance in a region where hom*ophobia is still rife — even two decades after her passing.

1990s: Intimacy Resonates

Building on the folk origins of Chapman and Indigo Girls, k.d. lang initially broke through with several country hits in the late '80s, but ruffled feathers with country radio when she came out as a lesbian in 1992. Nonetheless, she never backed down from who she was, and it launched her to sapphic pop stardom. Lang's alluring stage presence and a sensual masc charm helped her score a global hit with 1992's "Constant Craving," which has been cited as an ode to lesbian love. The song won a GRAMMY for Best Female Pop Vocal Performance in 1993 — the same year she posed for a steamy Vanity Fair photoshoot with Cindy Crawford, which goes down in the lesbian history books.

In the late '90s, teenage twins Tegan and Sara picked up guitars and began performing confessional acoustic songs with big pop hooks and grunge elements (1999 track "Proud" features empowering lines such as "Freedom and blood/ I make my mark and fight for tomorrow… I'm proud to be me"). Their unapologetically queer music videos were intentional in their push for inclusion, complete with same-sex make-out scenes featuring LGBTQIA+ actors. The sisters, both openly lesbian, had a cameo in the cult lesbian series "The L Word," and their nonprofit Tegan and Sara Foundation promotes for LGBTQIA+ equality by raising funds for health care programs, summer camp and more.

2000s: Pop Gets Gayer

The 2000s marked a shift away from the acoustic confessionals of the decades prior, with a move into club beats and big pop hooks. Queer band the Gossip, starring charismatic, rebellious frontwoman Beth Ditto, broke all expectations of what pop could be and look like, with punk chords, disco beats and a belting voice. Their 2005 smash hit album, Standing in the Way of Control, confronted the marginalization and fear experienced by the queer community. The album's titular song was written in resistance to George Bush's attempt to outlaw same-sex marriage; "Standing in the way of control/ You live your life/ Survive the only way that you know," screamed Ditto.

Before developing a synth-pop sound on later albums, Chile's Javiera Mena carved emotional, melodic songs on her keyboard with her 2006 debut, Esquemas Juveniles; the album featured heartfelt love songs like "Camera Lenta," which eschewed pronouns to sing about "the different paths to your eyes" in Spanish. Though she became more explicit with her sexuality in the 2010s — particularly on the lesbo-erotic hit "Espada" — Mena has been recognized as one of the pioneers in Latin America's LGBTQIA+ movement, alongside Ricky Martin, Kany Garcia and Pabllo Vittar.

London teenager Elly Jackson, better known as La Roux, immediately broke onto the pop scene with her smash "Bulletproof," and attracted a queer following for her androgynous looks — a refreshing anecdote to the chart dominance of hyper femme pop-stars of the time. While Jackson initially eschewed any labels, not wanting to be confined to queer audiences and baffled by the public speculation on her sexuality, she later embraced her place as an LGBTQIA+ icon (her 2014 track "Cruel Sexuality" appears to address her own journey: "Cruel sexuality / Am I a fool to let you trouble me?").

2010s: Mainstream Breakthrough

The 2010s marked a significant push for marriage equality, with same-sex marriage rights being awarded in countries like the U.S., UK, Argentina, Germany, and Australia, among others. This movement for equality was paralleled by a growing visibility of LGBTQ+ representation in pop culture — and sapphic pop was beginning to resonate more than ever before.

L.A.-bred trio MUNA released their indie pop debut, About You, in 2017, loaded with heartfelt songs that helped the trio quickly cultivate a die-hard following of queer fans. Listeners identified with the band's rebellion about heteronormative tropes and coming-of-age queer songs like "It's Gonna Be Okay, Baby" ("Your gonna move to New York, and experiment with communism/ Go down on a girl/ After reading her some Frantz Fanon").

Another bisexual indie darling (and MUNA's eventual "Silk Chiffon" collaborator), Phoebe Bridgers, also released her debut in 2017. Titled Stranger in the Alps, the album navigated toxic relationships, as well as Bridgers' experiences with women, with queer fans gravitating toward her unprecedented bisexual representation.

A year later, Bridgers teamed up with fellow LGBTQIA+ stars Julien Baker and Lucy Dacus to form the supergroup boygenius. The trio has flipped the "boy band" trope on its head, showing that masculine heartthrobs can emerge from feminine fluidity. With lyrics that delve into queer love and heartbreak — and live shows featuring plenty of onstage making out — the band has had a seismic impact on the sapphic pop landscape (and won three GRAMMYs in the process).

In the mid-aughts, U.S. pop star Hayley Kiyoko was experimenting with her artistry following the split of being in girl group The Stunners. Reintroducing herself as a solo star in 2013, Kiyoko had the freedom to explore lyrical themes that were more true to her own experience — like her 2015 breakthrough hit, "Girls Like Girls." The song, and accompanying music video, cemented her place in the queer pop canon; which Kiyoko has followed up with several songs about queer love and relationships, including "What I Need" featuring Kehlani (who came out as lesbian in 2021 and has since explored her own sapphic narratives, like 2020's "Tangerine.")

After hinting at their sexuality with the breakup song "Talia" in 2017, King Princess, who is genderqueer, went all-in on their queerness with the laid-back indie love song "puss* is God" in 2018. Since then, they've built a cult following with songs marked by blatant honesty in a shifting age of gender identity and sexual expression — like 2022's "Sex Shop," which contemplates the use of strap-ons and binders.

Meanwhile, pansexual and nonbinary artist Janelle Monaédonned vagin*-shaped pants for their symbolic video "Pynk," their 2018 sapphic sex anthem from Dirty Computer — a queer afro-futurist album that rebelled against the conservative policies of the then-incumbent Trump administration ("If you try to grab my puss* cat/ This puss* cat grab you back" they spit on "I Got The Juice"). The album's accompanying science-fiction film featured Monaé playing an android on the run with a lover, played by Tessa Thompson. Monaé's went even more explicitly queer in follow-up album The Age of Pleasure, a hedonistic kaleidoscope of funk, pop and reggae ("I like lipstick on my neck, leave a ticky hickey in a place I won't forget," they flirt on "Lipstick Lover").

2020s: Sapphic Pop Explosion

Though we're only four years into the 2020s, the decade has been marked by an explosion of sapphic pop. New Jersey pop star FLETCHER helped kick off the movement in 2020 with her EP The S(ex) Tapes, which navigated the end of a lesbian relationship through dark pop hooks loaded with sensual energy. Two years later, she doubled down on the lesbian narrative with her debut album, Girl Of My Dreams, which spawned one of the most viral queer songs of the decade this far, "Becky's So Hot." (In between, she delivered another lesbian bop alongside Kiyoko with 2021's "Cherry.")

Norwegian indie star girl in red, who is openly queer, cultivated a huge online following after the release of standalone early singles (in the track "i wanna be your girlfriend," she sings, "Oh Hannah… I don't wanna be your friend/ I wanna kiss your lips"), before releasing her highly anticipated debut if i could make it go quiet in 2021, featuring songs like "Did You Come?" ("Did you do the things you know I like? Roll your tongue, make her cum 20 times?"). Her connection to lesbians and bisexual women was so strong that the term "do you listen to girl in red?" evolved into a code to identify fellow queers on Sapphic TikTok.

In the Latin urban scene, openly gay Puerto Rican star

Eilish was one of many Coachella 2024 performers who brought sapphic pop to the desert. Reneé Rapp's set was introduced by the cast of "The L Word," Ludmilla's shared a tender onstage kiss with her wife during love song "Maldivas", and of course, Chappell Roan — decked in her Eat Me tee — had thousands to sing along with her unabashedly kinky hits.

Roan herself is redefining pop, with outfits inspired by drag aesthetic and lyrics that are unapologetically sapphic ("Knee deep in the passenger's seat and you're eating me out/ Are we casual now?" she sings in country pop ballad "Casual"). In August, Roan broke records for attracting Lollapalooza's largest-ever crowd, and her rapidly rising fame helped her 2023 album, The Rise and Fall of a Midwest Princess, reach No. 2 on the all-genre Billboard 200 (and a UK No. 1) nearly a year after its release.

Lesbian and queer artists have been making music for decades — and with artists more openly celebrating their sexuality than ever before, it's an undeniably exciting and historic time for the LGBTQIA+ music community. A new era of sapphic pop is upon us, and it's hot, explicit and gleefully unrestrained. You could even call it a femininomenon.

It's no secret that Filipinos can unapologetically belt out a song from Celine Dion, Whitney Houston or any pop diva on the mic. But beyond the viral videos of them singing their hearts out in malls or in their homes, the Filipino music scene is vibrantly filled with heart and emotions; and often taken over by powerful soloists like the Philippine pop princess Sarah Geronimo, balladeers like Martin Nievera or Morisette Amon, and acoustic/rock bands like Ben&Ben or Up Dharma Down that often sing about love, heartbreak and life.

Within the last decade, we've seen an evolution in the Philippine music scene: while solo stars continue to shine, pop groups have begun to take over the spotlight. The concept of pop groups have existed before in Philippine entertainment, however, were usually formed through variety shows or composed of actors and actresses — not necessarily pop idols that you can compare in other Asian music markets like Japan and South Korea.

It really wasn't until 2018, during the peak of third-generation K-pop, where we saw the beginning of first generation Pinoy pop idol groups. Inspired and influenced by the K-pop idol training system, some P-pop entertainment companies have begun implementing similar systems, or inviting Korean mentors who are active in the industry for any vocal and dance training needed.

Two of the most notable first-gen P-Pop groups are SB19 and BINI, who are at the forefront of bringing P-pop to a global audience. Five-piece boy band SB19 became the first Southeast Asian group to be nominated for a Billboard Music Award in 2021, and their 2023 single "GENTO" was approved for GRAMMY consideration last year. Meanwhile, eight-piece girl group BINI have earned the title as the Nation's Girl Group after a string of successful viral hits including "Salamin, Salamin" and "Pantropiko"; just this year, they made history as the first P-pop act to perform at KCON in Los Angeles.

Of course, the P-pop universe wouldn't be complete without solo acts. P-pop fans love to celebrate the timeless discography of Sarah Geronimo or gush over Asia's pop heartthrob Darren Espanto, and there's always new individual talent proving that the scene is still thriving.

As major P-pop stars continue to make waves, there's tons of blossoming acts who are helping to raise the Filipino flag in the global music scene. In light of the bright future ahead, here are a mix of P-Pop groups and soloists you should check out.

ALAMAT

If the actual country of the Philippines were a pop group, it would be ALAMAT. The six member group — composed of Taneo, Mo, Jao, Tomas, R-ji, and Alas —under Viva Records values Filipino culture in their concepts.

Each member hails from different regions of the Philippines and also speak different dialects from their respective regions. Using dialects and culture to their advantage, ALAMAT often incorporates traditional folk dances, instruments, and lyrics in their native languages; and blends them into the modern sounds of hip-hop, R&B and dance.

BGYO

Formed in 2018 and officially making their debut under Star Music in 2021 with "The Light," the quintet composed of Gelo, Akira, JL, Mikki, and Nate are known as the "Aces of P-Pop." The name BGYO even celebrates their heritage, as it's an acronym for "Becoming the change, Going further, You and I, Originally Filipino."

Often fusing pop sounds with R&B, the boy group isn't afraid to get quirky with their concepts — whether they're singing a ballad in suits or wearing vibrant oversized ones. As a result, their music is helping BGYO score big wins: Their single "The Baddest" made them the first Filipino act to top Billboard's Next Big Sound chart in 2021, followed by P-Pop Group of the Year at the TikTok Awards Philippines in 2022.

KAIA

Debuting under SB19's former label, ShowBT Philippines, KAIA is composed of members Angela, Charlotte, Sophia, Alexa, and Charice. The quintet officially made their debut in 2022 with their lead single "BLAH BLAH" — a powerful EDM-pop track that can be considered for your gaming playlist.

The name KAIA is a double entendre: a Cebuano word "kinaiya" meaning one's self and personality; and the Tagalog word "kaya" which roughly translates "to be able to" or "can do." In other words, a P-pop girl group that can give you the extra boost when you need that sonic encouragement on the daily.

Inigo Pascual

One of the Philippine heartthrobs, Inigo Pascual is a suave and smooth pop soloist who aims to make you swoon with his R&B-pop serenades. His pop-doowop hit "Dahil Sa'Yo" off his solo debut of the same name became the first song to top the Billboard Philippines Top 20 chart in 2016.

Right from his debut, the actor and singer/songwriter continued to soar in his career when he released his international single "Options" in 2019. Just last month, the chart-topping singer unveiled his latest project, Basta't Alam Kong Tayo 1, a three-track single-album under Republic Records Philippines.

G22

If you already listen to K-pop, then you are familiar with the girl crush concept where the sounds are bass-heavy and the looks are all about dark outfits with smokey makeup. If that's up your alley, then check out G22.

Under Cornerstone Entertainment, the former quartet-turned-trio composed of members AJ, Alfea, and Jaz are known to be the "Female Alphas of Philippine Pop." The trio officially made their debut in April 2022 with their first single "BANG!" which was then followed by their second single "Babalik!" in May. But don't be fooled by their powerful demeanors — the trio also has a light and soft side to themselves in their B-sides and singles too.

VXON

If G22 is dubbed as the "Female Alphas of Philippine Pop," then VXON are said to be the "Monsters of P-pop" — so don't be fooled by the pretty boy looks VXON may carry. They are a P-pop group that can balance bubblegum pop with beast-like concepts, as if you're watching the transformation of boys to men. But at their core, they're making music to capture your heart (see for yourself with their viral R&B hit "Sandal").

Making their official debut in January 2022, the group consists of five members: C13, Franz, Patrick, Vince and Sam. After a big first year — they won Favorite Rookie P-Pop Group at Nylon Manila's Big, Bold, and Brave Awards in 2022 — VXON have continued winning hearts, most recently delivering a series of swoon-worthy live sessions on their YouTube channel.

Maymay Entrata

A multi-talented soloist, Maymay embodies Filipino entertainment, a fun and vibrant breath of fresh air within the Philippine music scene. She takes pride in her Visayan roots and stays grounded from her humble beginnings, even naming and singing her songs in Visaya, Tagalog and English.

First known as the season 7 winner of "Pinoy Big Brother" in 2016, Maymay has made a name for herself as a musical artist in the last couple of years. Signed under the same label as BINI and BGYO, Maymay is grandiose in her music, presenting a plethora of genres in her discography, from disco to dance pop to a little salsa with visuals that encapsulate inspiration from Filipino culture. "Her journey is only going further as she teased her first and upcoming international single "Paradise"at the 'ASAP Natin 'To in California' concert earlier this month."

PLUUS

Formerly known as SBTCBoys, the six-member boy group composed of Theo, Gab, Justin, Yen, Haro, and JL made their debut in 2023 with their first EP +.Y.M. (stylized and read as Time). Steering away from the traditional lead single promotions, PLUUS broke boundaries by promoting three tracks at once with "Amigo," "My Time" and "Cross My Heart" last year.

The trio of tracks also displayed PLUUS' wide array of talents: "Amigo" is a hip-hop-heavy dance pop track celebrating camaraderie; whereas "My Time" follows the personal stories of being an idol; and "Cross My Heart" is a love song about letting go. They've continued showing their versatility in 2024, with the airy single "Universe" and the thumping track "Summotion."

1st.One

1st.One was already putting themselves on the map, and embodying their name, before they even made their official debut in July 2020; the month before, they became the first Filipino act to perform at the Seoul Music Awards. The six members —Ace, Max, Alpha, J, Joker, Jayson — debuted under the Philippine subsidiary of FirstOne Entertainment in South Korea with their single electronic pop single "You Are The One (Ttak Maja Nuh)."

If you're into the nostalgic sounds of second-gen K-pop, 1st.One may be your seamless transition into P-pop. But just like any other group, they've explored different sounds and concepts; earlier this year, the group switched it up and dropped their R&B slow jam single "Dito" that was choreographed by member Max.

DIONE

1st.One's sister group, DIONE (or stylized as D1ONE), also debuted in 2020, carrying that girl crush aesthetic with them. Some members of the group were first introduced as LUNA, a project trainee group under FirstOne Entertainment set to debut. Eventually, the quartet composed of Joyden, DK, Clara, and Ella released their digital single "BLING BLING" in April 2022.

Upon their official debut, the quartet's image delivered expensive pop, soundtracking their luxurious, high-fashion looks with EDM-driven pop — somewhat reminiscent of the sounds of second-gen K-pop groups like 2NE1 and After School. Their music is fun, energetic and quite tantalizing.

YARA

Fairly new to the game, YARA is oozing with charisma, from their rap flows to their dance moves. Signed under Sony Music Philippines, YARA consists of four members — Gelou, Rocher, Christa, and Kim — who blend rap, hip-hop and pop all together.

Debuting in March 2023, the P-pop girl group released their first single "Adda" (short for "Apat Dapat Dapat Apat"). Earlier this year, the group revived the old school bubblegum pop song "Bakit Papa?" by variety show girl group Sexbomb Girls, and gave it an R&B twist. Their recent track "Katawan Flow" sees the group making the dancehall genre their own — hinting that their musical direction will always be unpredictable.

Maki

Maki isn't your typical idol pop singer, but that's exactly what makes him a promising soloist. He seamlessly blends alternative rock and pop together, triggering a listener to get in their feels along the way.

When he's not dancing to BINI's "Cherry On Top," you can often find Maki strumming a guitar, questioning various love-related situations. And it seems his approach is working: his latest release, "Dilaw," topped the Billboard Philippines' Hot 100 and Billboard Top Philippines Songs for multiple weeks in July.

CALISTA

Officially making their debut under Tyronne Escalante Artist Management and Merlion Events Production in 2022, CALISTA is working toward being the next P-pop greats. Carrying more of a girl crush vibe, CALISTA's sounds blend dreamy pop with 808 beats and R&B.

Originally debuting as a six-member ensemble with the trap-inspired pop single "Race Car," the group has spent the majority of 2024 as a quartet comprised of Anne, Dain, Elle, and Denise. Their latest single "Let Me Know" has made its way around TikTok, helping them get one step closer to achieving superstar status.

ECLYPSE

Originally known as YAMA, ECLYPSE is fairly new, but definitely promising, to the P-Pop game. Comprised of six former participants of reality-survival show "Top Class" (Lex, Gilly, Dean, Clyde, Gab, Joshuel) and one who was announced as a member on the live-streaming app KUMU (Rave), the group have been forming since 2022 and made their official debut this year under GKD Labels.

Whether they're taking on a light or dark concept, their sounds revolve around the EDM genre — a seamless fit for their tones and voices. If you're a fan of synths, harmonies and falsetto, this may be the group for you.

At multiple points during our conversation discussing her latest album Buzz, NIKI falls back on one phrase. "I should speak for myself." While she cuts herself off often, physically but gently coaxing herself back on track, NIKI's latest release is defiantly personal.

"I think it's going to mark a new era for me musically. Personally, it is my favorite thing I've ever done." she says of the album.

The past few years of NIKI's life have been spent in constant flux. The artist started her career as a performing artist on YouTube, did a headlining tour in support of her second album Nicole, and eventually became the first Indonesian artist to perform at Coachella (alongside fellow 88Rising labelmate Rich Brian). For the former self-proclaimed perfectionist, the exhaustion and rudderlessness of touring threw open the doors to some much needed introspection. When NIKI found herself alone, she realized had no idea who she was or what she was doing. So, she did the only thing she could do: write songs.

"I write songs as a way to process my life as it's happening. Everyone has different ways of coping, and that just happens to be mine," the 25-year-old singer confesses. Buzz was written between tour dates, with no "concrete vision" in mind; in fact, it was probably the first time that NIKI had truly processed everything that had happened in her career. "Writing 'Buzz' was a very reflection-oriented time. I was making sense of my present and how my past has sort laid down the stepping stones, and everything in between."

Confronted with a constant feeling of being uprooted and the vast unknown, NIKI realized that keeping a tight grip on how she approached, understood, and perceived her emotions was counterproductive. "Writing 'Buzz' was my way to deal with a lot of this existentialism that I was coming into for the first time in my early 20s," she continues. "I feel like everyone is starting to ask the big, deep, difficult questions when they start to live on their own and have to trudge through life as their own person."

With an intimate, oft-minimalistic sound and almost stream of consciousness lyrics Buzz is an album for letting go of control and the learned behaviors of perfectionism in the favor of self-awareness, where NIKI processes "a spectrum of world weariness, of excitement, of joy and pain and all the moments in between."

"Buzz" is where she finds herself anew. She takes her time mulling over the hard questions on "Nothing Can", allows herself to grieve the loss of a great love on "Paths", breaks the cycle of generational trauma on "Strong Girl" and "Heirloom Pain", and learns that there is "freedom in accepting that everything is just incomplete and messy all the time."

This interview has been edited and condensed.

When I was reading about the album, it appeared that you faced an identity crisis while making it. Do you feel satisfied with it or are you anxious about how people will receive it?

I think it's both. Anytime I'm on the cusp of releasing something, I'm always a little bit nervous as to how people are going to receive it. At the same time, I feel like I made this record with full conviction in myself and in my artistry.

I think this is really the first time that I'm able to say that. I steered the making of this record myself.

A lot of the songs on 'Buzz' felt like waves, with a very natural flow and progression to the songs on the album. It felt like you were giving into a feeling or embracing something. Did you allow yourself to feel [this flow] or did you have a concrete vision?

Buzz was the first album that I made that I didn't actually have a concrete vision in mind. It was just an organic synthesis of what's been happening over the past two years.

Two years ago I started headline touring, and that inspired a lot of the album. Just this feeling of constantly being on the go, being uprooted time and time again, so the theme of acceptance is a huge one on this album. The acceptance of life being a constant state of uncertainty. We, as people, are constantly developing and irresolute. So this album was kind of made to process those feelings.

It’s an album of nuance, of nestling into this area of gray that we so often wrestle with in life. I definitely tend to see things as black and white. I was raised to think that way, with my Indonesian upbringing. My mom was very religious, so I think this album is about unlearning a lot of that stuff, taking what serves you from childhood and letting go of what doesn't, and embracing that things will feel messy very often.

Yet you ended the album itself on a very hopeful note. Was that intentional?

Absolutely. Sometimes I joke that the universe has its foot on my neck right now. But I think, in general, I'm quite an optimistic person, or at least I try to be. I gravitate towards art or music that tends to skew that way, because I think we all need a little bit of hope in this very difficult, scary world.

The record ends with "Nothing Can." I love that song, because it's a blend of optimism, but also it's just telling it as it is. Like, nothing and no one will be able to save you and I think that was an important thing that I had to teach myself.

Growing up, you watch a lot of movies and so much of media is like, somebody's going to come swooping in knight in shining armor-style and maybe rescue you. Or a job will save you from your pain or the perfect fill-in-the-blank is gonna be the answer. That's impossible. You are responsible for your own happiness. What "Nothing Can" is about is that despite the mess and the suffering and the pain there are still moments in between that make everything worthwhile.

Did you go through a similar process of realization when it comes to making music? A moment where you thought, 'Maybe I'm expecting my career to make me happy but it should be the other way around?'

How do I eloquently say this? It's like... before Buzz, and even before Nicole, the way I perceived making music was like aceing assignments. I think I had always been a little bit of an overachiever. Buzz was my first real, true exercise in just writing and making art just to make art for myself versus to fulfill expectations. I found a lot of artistic healing through making this album because it was the first time I really kind of put my head down and was like: I'm going to make an album for myself in a way that I want and that feels authentic.

I realized quickly that every time I hit a milestone, I would aspire for the next milestone. And then there's always sky above sky — that is what my mom always told me. There is always something more to aspire to. So you really have to find peace and joy within yourself in order to show up the way you want to in your life. I wrote Buzz, just to help myself let go of the perfectionist streak.

So, if you were to describe the relationship between 'Nicole' and 'Buzz' knowing what you do now, what would you call it?

I have fondly nicknamed Buzz Nicole's older, wiser sister. Nicole walked so that Buzz could run. Nicole was a very diaristic window into my past and Buzz is very much rooted in my present. Nicole is about the subject matter that's important to you when you're 17, like your first ever breakup with your first love that feels so cataclysmic and earth-shattering. That's no longer relevant to me the same way that things are happening in my 20s now.

Nicole was also sonically a lot more pop. On Buzz, I was inspired by a lot of artists. Obviously Joni Mitchell, and a current artist that I really love that I feel like echoes Joni Mitchell is Madison Cunningham. I am so inspired by her musicianship and guitar playing specifically. It made me think: I would want to have an album that I'd be so stoked to play every single night for however long on tour and I never get sick of these songs. Buzz is more musical, and there is a looseness to it that I feel Nicole lacked.

I also remember you saying in an interview that back when you wrote 'Nicole,' you went very heavy on imagery and metaphors. In contrast, 'Buzz' is still poetic, but very rooted in practicality. Do you think that's a natural consequence of growing up, and dealing with the realization that once life has hit us in the face, we don't prefer not to look at things with rosy lenses?

[Laughs.] I think it is a natural consequence of growing up. I think Nicole was so unapologetically schmaltzy. The way I wrote, I definitely cringe now because, you know, it's that 17-year-old drama. Everything feels so blown up out of proportion when you're 17, right? It was so emotional. The way I write [now] is totally different because there's a big dose of practicality and pragmatism in the way I perceive things. I think it's a lot more emotionally healthier to balance emotion and reason, than having emotions just completely drown reason.

Buzz, specifically, is very much a reflection of the kind of writing that I gravitate to now, which is a lot less like "My world is going to end because you're leaving." Because you know when you're 25, you don't really necessarily feel that anymore. I feel that's really obvious in songs like "Take Care" and "Paths" where it is an older kind of love. A significant relationship of mine ended, and I still very much have only respect and love for this person and also wanting the best for them. I feel like, on Nicole, it was all so punitive. It was like, "You must be punished for how you hurt me!"

Was there anything that helped you learn to deal with things in this way? I did read that the album also contains some lessons that you learned in therapy.

Therapy has had a direct link to this record. Therapy has been transformative in the way I think and therefore the way I think shapes the way I write, and the way I write shapes the album that I make.

For example, I call "Heirloom Pain" and "Nothing Can" my "radical acceptance" songs. That was a term that I learnt through therapy. Radical acceptance does not mean demeaning your grief or repressing your pain. Radical acceptance is saying, This really sucks, but I'm going to respond to this in a different way. Without therapy, I probably would still be writing very punitive schmaltzy Nicole songs.

I think everything can be processed, though! I feel like Buzz has a balance. I feel like I'm still pretty petty on "Colossal Loss" and "Focus" is just shade central.

"Focus" really made me think you must be in your 'I'm not your therapist" era.

Exactly, I'm in my "no clowns" era. [Laughs.]

Radical acceptance makes a lot of sense. "Heirloom Pain" has this keen realization that our parents did their best, and they're only human, so you can't really blame them.

I think it humanizes everybody in [your family tree] that came before you, and at the very end, I flip it around onto [the listener] and [the song says] "You're gonna fall in love and f— up too."

We are born and everyone does the same thing over and over. We never learn! But at the same time, it doesn't shy away from the genuine pain and trauma. I literally called out my dad's temper and my mom's mistakes. Sometimes I'm like, 'Why did you guys not think about this before you had kids?' [Laughs.]

As you grow up…your parents kind of fall off the pedestal, you start to get on their level. You see them as humans.

This is such a primitive album for you in some ways. What was the recording process for this like?

When I am in work mode, I don't always feel it. If I'm singing a painful song, usually that hits me a little bit later. When I recorded "Paths," that was basically a one-take thing that I did in my own studio at home. I remember just singing through the whole song for the first time, and at one point in the middle, I choked. I started to tear up because I felt so emotionally moved.

With this album specifically, I've learned my methods. I never do more than three takes, especially for vocals. If I do more than three takes, it starts to... you know the feeling of when you look at a word too long and the word doesn't look like a word anymore? When I sing the same thing too many times, I start to not feel it anymore. ["Paths"] felt like exposure therapy. I wrote the thing that I was really scared to write and then I was singing it.

It's interesting you say that you don't like singing your songs on repeat. What is your relationship with touring like then? Does it get exhausting performing the same song or set over and over?

Touring is definitely a different beast. I feel like it's more important to get the right take when you're recording an album, because an album is forever. A show is different every single night. To be completely honest, sometimes as a performer, if you do it so many times like it's muscle memory. You can slip into autopilot over time. The constantly changing variable on tour is the crowd. So whatever is happening in the crowd is usually enough to inject a newness to the show.

I also wrote Buzz for this reason. I wanted an album that felt looser and felt more relaxed even in its DNA so that when I go on tour, I can play it as loosely as possible to create space for variety.

It also feels like you've learned to be more accepting. Your recordings used to be a fairly solitary affair but now you've actively started involving more people in it.

I definitely ventured out into involving more collaborators and it's not just me and my laptop and headphones anymore, but I definitely still am very selective with who I let into my musical universe, because I have a specific vision of how I want things to sound, and what kind of environments I work best in.

The way I like to work is that I start a skeletal framework for [a song], I produce it a little bit, record some parts. Then I call a producer that I respect, who I've seen work on my other favorite artists and then I give them that framework and then we finish it together. I worked with Ethan Gruska, who worked with Phoebe Bridgers, and Tyler Chester – who helped me produce "Strong Girl" – worked on all of Madison Cunningham's stuff. It's really fun to keep the circle small.

A lot of songs on 'Buzz', like "Blue Moon," "Paths" and "Magnets" talk about putting faith in a higher power.

I grew up very religious. My mom was a singer at church, so God was always an integral concept growing up. I wouldn't call myself a Christian now, but I definitely still believe in something greater than all of us. Julia Cameron, who wrote The Artist's Way, said: "God can be God to you, or it can stand for Good Orderly Direction." I think it is a beautiful way of thinking about it.

I definitely am also an astrology girlie. I do believe that we were all made with intention. I do think there's a great creator out there and I believe that there is something out there — the universe, God, whatever you want to call it — that's guiding us or has our best interest.

Do you like revisiting your past stuff? I ask this because it feels like with every new album, you have proverbially wiped the slate clean.

I will literally listen to my work or my music a million times before it's out. And then once it's out, I rarely ever revisit it.I almost see it as yours; it's the world’s now. It's ours. It's not something that I have been intentional about. Even when I had a YouTube channel when I was 15, I did this. I would watch my video and edit it five million times. And then as soon as I uploaded it, I never watched it again.

I guess I do this to process my life as it's happening. Once it's shared, it's difficult for me to view it as just my own anymore. That's why every time I move on to a new project it feels like a completely different thing, because I never look at my past work. I never draw from that as an inspiration. I look forward instead.